Mountains and Water

I note that there is a version with a different vo...

2012-02-14T23:27:51.306-07:00

I note that there is a version with a different voice-over that is visible in the upper right of this cropped frame when the embedded version is finished playing.

What we have is two climbers who did what they wan...

2012-02-09T22:44:58.878-07:00

What we have is two climbers who did what they wanted just because it's what they wanted.

"In February 2007, an assembly of Argentine and foreign climbers in El Chaltén voted 30–10 against chopping the line. "

That's 75%.

I wonder if these two guys would do the same thing to Dawn Wall in Yosemite. The not such a different scenario.

Also, by fair means in this case means they didn't even follow the line where the bolts were, they climbed a various on the existing line, then chopped the original line.

This wasn't their call to make. All they did, like the David Lama Situation awhile back, is create more negative press about climbers and the attitude/ego we have.

http://pataclimb.com/knowledge/articles/CTbolts.ht...

2012-02-09T11:33:53.541-07:00

http://pataclimb.com/knowledge/articles/CTbolts.html

"Cesare Maestri drilled the many long bolt ladders not to connect natural features but to avoid them, tackling blank rock that he could overcome at a 15-bolt-per-hour pace with his compressor and drill, altering Cerro Torre’s natural challenges in a way unseen on any other mountain of such magnificence. Most of the 400 bolts he placed are unnecessary by anybody’s standards, even those from back in 1970 when he placed them. Maestri acknowledged as much when, referring to the upper headwall, he wrote in a 1971 Mountain magazine article that, “We could have climbed many sections with normal pins, but we had left them at the bergschrund 3,000 feet lower, so we had no alternative but to drill.”

Granted that Garibotti is not an unbiased observer but photographs make clear that a substantial number of the bolts were not placed with efficiency or utility in mind.

See the photo at:
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011/02/cerro-torre-attempts.html

So there is something different about the Cerro...

2012-02-09T10:36:11.838-07:00
So there is something different about the Cerro Torre bolts, something that creates a special case. I would suggest that their lack of utility, the seemingly random profusion of them, phenomena that many have commented on already, that arouses a particular ire. They have no utility, no clear sense of purpose.

I would say the opposite is true:

The bolts, like bolts anywhere, are entirely utilitarian, their purpose being to enable or abet passage.

Remember that the Compressor Route was the most popular route on the mountain, and had enjoyed this status since its inception.

Peter Stokes--I was wondering if Katie Brow...

2012-02-09T00:05:52.666-07:00
Peter Stokes--I was wondering if Katie Brown did the voice-over or only played "L Walker" (the name on the credit card,thus of her character) for video purposes.That the voice is one person and the body another is another level of fakery (though most queries about the commercial have been whether the climb itself was faked).

Damn Peter, you nailed it. Before I started climb...

2012-02-06T20:40:04.470-07:00
Damn Peter, you nailed it.

Before I started climbing, I was briefly into backpacking and made several solo trips out to Big Bend. With each trip I made a point to learn more about the area that I was spending so much time alone in and learned about the human history of what is regarded as the last frontier to be settled in the United States.

When Big Bend is framed in these terms, I think the notion that the NPS felt it necessary to attempt to remove all signs of modern human settlement was short sighted, as the very settlement itself, regardless of what it may look like now, are historically significant and valuable to the human narrative's role in the history of the area.

At first, when I read about the bolt removal, I was for it. But when Mario Conti weighed in, it reminded me of Big Bend and the time I'd spent there, and the signs of history there, some ugly, some hauntingly beautiful. And then realized the impact the bolt removal has on the Patagonia's history.

But at the same time, this just adds more to the narrative. People do love drama.

Good stuff Peter. It reminds me of the discussio...

2012-02-06T13:38:14.955-07:00
Good stuff Peter.

It reminds me of the discussion I've had with others about high school athletes trying to get college scholarships. Many athletes (or their families) spend a small fortune to attend camps, participate on club teams and travel to various campuses, all in the pursuit of a scholarship to play their sport in college. In some of those cases their work probably pays off and they come out ahead. In a lot of cases, in our experience, they end up paying more in travel and other expenses than the scholarship ever pays out and it seems it would have been prudent to just save money for college and walk on somewhere to play their sport. Similar to climbing, it seems there is some "prestige" in having a scholarship. In running the same thing happens. I see folks spending a small fortune and considerable time for a handful of free shoes. I get the sense that for some people there is a coolness to using the word "sponsored."

Hi Walt, I didn't think it was rambling at all...

2012-02-04T19:43:28.304-07:00
Hi Walt, I didn't think it was rambling at all and I appreciate the input, especially coming from someone in a similar industry who knows what goes on. I agree with the "relative poverty" aspect. The job market is incredibly competitive now and any delay getting on board can be very costly down the road.

Peter - Yes, I guess I was just rambling and/or r...

2012-02-04T19:18:51.281-07:00
Peter -

Yes, I guess I was just rambling and/or reinforcing your point.

I do wonder what some of the young studs will think about this period of their lives (especially some of those who delayed/skipped going to college) in a decade or two. I'm guessing being a "pro" climber can easily condemn you to a *lifetime* of relative poverty in many cases - life isn't about money, but a severe lack of job prospects when you're 35 does tend to suck.

Thanks for the great comment. As I described it in...

2012-02-04T18:12:28.933-07:00
Thanks for the great comment. As I described it in the next post, my concern was not whether the companies got more than they gave but whether athletes got as good as they gave. Niche industries are not lucrative for anyone involved for the most part as you point out and sponsorships are pretty much pouring money down the drain on both sides. So it seems you had better be in it for the love of the game as much as anything else.

IMO, top climbers don't sell much merchandise....

2012-02-04T16:02:12.093-07:00
IMO, top climbers don't sell much merchandise. Having a top lady or guy climbing in your shoes is more about prestige (and, to some extent, company presidents living vicariously through the athletes they sponsor) than it is about sales. There are certainly people who buy a pair of shoes because of an ad - but it's the picture of the shoes that probably gets them, or the quality of the photo/route. You could put any ripped guy/girl in the shot.

Of course, I can't prove any of this, but I have a lot of experience in a similarly low-budget sport (mountain bike racing) as both a sponsored rider and now as someone who gives away some product to young studs every once in a while. In my experience, the folks that buy product (ie, the folks with actual money) aren't the folks who read the magazines - they're the 45 year old successful accountants who think a bike that's 50 grams lighter is going to help them beat their buddies to the top of the hill. These people generally do not read magazines, attend trade shows, or interact on any regular basis with sponsored riders. Ask one of them who Kulhavy (current world champion) is, and 99% of them will have no idea, much less that he rides a Specialized.

I contend it's the same for climbing. Sponsorships are a money losing proposition for the sponsor in almost all cases, and that's the way it's always been. But the competition among climbers is fierce to be "sponsored" and that means that, indeed, the wages often are less than the cost of earning them.

Well said Peter. I will add that presence matter...

2012-01-27T07:54:14.612-07:00
Well said Peter.

I will add that presence matters.

It does take some personal outlay to be a pro climber, but the most successful at getting sponsor support are the ones who climb at the top levels AND maintain a strong and positive presence for their sponsors, signing posters and books at the trade shows, appearing at competitions, and just generally being a good ambassador for the brands they represent. That attitude is rare, even among top climbers, probably because there is a perception (from both the climber and the sponsor) that there is nothing to be gained from that extra effort, which IMO is untrue.

Thanks for the response. I guess I'm just not...

2012-01-25T19:43:03.305-07:00
Thanks for the response.

I guess I'm just not understanding how the grades being over, under or "exactly" right changes the trajectory of climbing.

JR

I think that Climbing going or becoming more "...

2012-01-25T19:40:14.444-07:00
I think that Climbing going or becoming more "mainstream," good or bad, is what will increase the amount a sponsored climbing athlete can make.

Let's face it, the market for climbing is very small compared to other mainstream sports. Without a large base of consumers, the money just isn't there.

I also think that climber often focus on climbing companies for sponsorship, but need to learn to branch out to other industries.

I too would like to see the numbers of the top guy. The Caldwell, Sharma, Hubber, many of which have brached out of the climbing bubble for financial sponsorship.

does moon have many us athletes on their roster? ...

2012-01-25T14:31:59.318-07:00
does moon have many us athletes on their roster? i am with william on this.

I would be interested to see some figures as well....

2012-01-25T12:47:00.337-07:00
I would be interested to see some figures as well. I find it hard to beleive that Sharma isn't pulling in at least a 6 figure salary with all of his sponosors combined (granted, its Sharma). Plus, all I hear about, so it seems, is the multiple trips Paul Robinson, Daniel Woods, Joe Kinder, Dave Graham, Sasha Digulian, etc. etc. go on. I guess the people in the list above are more exceptions to the rule than examples.
With the acquisition of 5.10 by Addidas it seems very plausible that 'athletes/climbers' will start to see their bills being paid. However, I'm not entirely sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. It is nice to see James signing a contract though, I can remeber when he was broke living out of a small cupboard in his parents place.
And Peter, thanks for publishing thought provoking content on your blog, and sorry about Moon.

I don't know the full story, but this news wou...

2012-01-25T04:46:34.938-07:00
I don't know the full story, but this news would turn me away from supporting this company. I purchased a set of Moon holds for my 40 deg wall, before they had a US distributor. Which means they were very expensive. Im very pleased with these holds. I also purchased a moon board and to say the least not very happy with it. Im 50/50 with this company. After this news, they wont see my business anytime soon. It's they people they need to recognize who have helped make them who they are.

Are there any numbers on how much the few true pro...

2012-01-25T02:15:14.270-07:00
Are there any numbers on how much the few true professional climbers actually make? I'm thinking about Chris Sharma or Dave Graham or Dean Potter. Those who are not only exceptional good at what they do but who are also well known and legends of the sport.

I seem to remember that Dean Potter received 50.000$ a year from Patagonia before he got dropped and another interview mentioned that he made a couple of hundred thousands over the years. Well, he may be an exception but I don't think that the few people at the top of the sport are poor. Any thoughts?

Honestly no idea. Writing and publishing a book on...

2012-01-24T21:12:31.712-07:00
Honestly no idea. Writing and publishing a book on bouldering with an internationally distributed publisher, appearing in a major climbing movie, climbing V12 at 47 (and much more) were apparently not enough to stay on. So it goes.

what happened with moon?

2012-01-24T20:11:11.482-07:00
what happened with moon?

Great post, Peter.

2012-01-24T14:48:04.724-07:00
Great post, Peter.

Moon Climbing's loss, mate...

2012-01-24T13:24:58.935-07:00
Moon Climbing's loss, mate...

JR, I am not exactly sure what you saying. Though ...

2012-01-24T12:59:20.050-07:00
JR, I am not exactly sure what you saying. Though hard bouldering is important in pushing free-climbing grades, the point of the post was to emphasize how groupthink and misconceptions about climbing blind climbers to real progress in the sport.

Great post. You seem to be on to something. Not ...

2012-01-24T08:19:06.782-07:00
Great post. You seem to be on to something. Not sure what though....If I had to guess it is this maturing "hard bouldering" that you seem to want to project on to everything. You are right on the cusp of figuring out that all roads point to "hard bouldering". The only problem is they don't.

My hope is that you don't take this as a slam. I do love your thoughts on these subjects.

JR

I am from Brazil and I went to visit my brother in...

2012-01-18T13:33:02.315-07:00
I am from Brazil and I went to visit my brother in US when I saw the commercial of Citi. To be honest I even noted that was a ad from a bank. I was just interested on the climbing that is showed on the ad. So I came back to Brazil and when I was looking on the internet some information about the ad I came across with the discussion in this blog.

Until cetain point the posts show that old discussion about the romantic view of some sport agaisnt a view that at the end of the day the sport (climbing, surfing, even soccer in the past) is just a sport. I personally believe that the romantic, idealistic view of a sport is naive. But it just my oppinion.

What surprised me more was the post that states that inply that banks or other big corporation are the evil. "What a pretentious bullsh@t notion for a bank that's pure evil" What a black and white point o view of th world! I would not suggest to this guy to move to North Korea, but suggest to reflect a litle better about the world we live before write things like that.

Finally, Peter congratulations for your blog. Discussions and arguments are healthy. Like Voltaire said once "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

Cheers,

Guilherme from Brazil

PS - Sorry about mt englis mistakes

Mountains and Water

I note that there is a version with a different vo...

What we have is two climbers who did what they wan...

http://pataclimb.com/knowledge/articles/CTbolts.ht...

So there is something different about the Cerro...

Peter Stokes--I was wondering if Katie Brow...

Damn Peter, you nailed it. Before I started climb...

Good stuff Peter. It reminds me of the discussio...

Hi Walt, I didn't think it was rambling at all...

Peter - Yes, I guess I was just rambling and/or r...

Thanks for the great comment. As I described it in...

IMO, top climbers don't sell much merchandise....

Well said Peter. I will add that presence matter...

Thanks for the response. I guess I'm just not...

I think that Climbing going or becoming more "...

does moon have many us athletes on their roster? ...

I would be interested to see some figures as well....

I don't know the full story, but this news wou...

Are there any numbers on how much the few true pro...

Honestly no idea. Writing and publishing a book on...

what happened with moon?

Great post, Peter.

Moon Climbing's loss, mate...

JR, I am not exactly sure what you saying. Though ...

Great post. You seem to be on to something. Not ...

I am from Brazil and I went to visit my brother in...